In this exclusive interview, Osho Shivo discusses his views on Krishna on different aspects of his multidimensional life.
Interview
Anand: What are the distinguishing characteristics of Krishna that make him relevant to our time?
Shivo: Krishna lived in the times of chaos and we all are again facing chaos. To be able to live life, when everything is changing too fast, the mind got to be dropped and we got to be the channel of cosmic consciousness. Only when we are able to access the cosmic intelligence, we will be able to enjoy these immensely chaotic times. The times are changing so quickly, that planning for future has become meaningless, so old way of analyzing the past and then projecting it to the future has failed. The only way, one can now live powerfully, is to flow with the cosmic consciousness and drop all ideas about future. Let cosmic intelligence take you, wherever it is going. My feeling is that we are soon going to shift to highly spiritual times from the current intellectual times as the mind will not be able to cope up with such a speed of change.
Anand: Krishna in his youth played pranks with the Gopis of his village and it is believed he had 16,000 wives. What message could be conveyed to the masses in our times, when SEX is still such a taboo?
Shivo: Well, I am going to say something controversial here. We are now moving from a monogamous society to polygamous society. Gone are the days, when one relationship sufficed for the whole life. We are entering a new paradigm and we have no idea how one can live multiple relationships at the same time, with totally intact integrity. And this is what one needs to learn from Krishna. However, I am not saying that in future, only the men will be polygamous (As was mostly the case in past). Even the women are going to be polygamous. And isn’t it amazing to see, how Krishna taught the art of managing 5 husbands to Panchali (Draupadi), who was his closest friend. I found his explanation to Panchali amazing, where he describes that how she was looking for 5 different qualities in her husband and it was not possible for one single human being to have all those qualities, hence she has to marry 5 men to fulfill her own wishes. If we look around, ain’t the women of our times also like Panchali, expecting the qualities, which are not possible for one men to imbibe. Hence I feel, Panchali may soon be the role model of the women of our times, remember, Krishna was her guide. So, there is a lot to learn from him.
Anand: The War of Mahabharata was the greatest war fought 5,000 years ago and it needed a man of a caliber of Krishna, for the world to sail through. Similarly, we are on the verge of another Great War, do you see Krishna arising again, in these times, which are more complicated than 5,000 years ago. And whose side will Krishna be, as the world has become so messy, it’s just not easy to decide, which side has good values and is just.
Shivo: As the world has evolved from matter to mind, everything has turned chaotic. Now, every person faces an intense situation, where the knowledge of past has become a burden. Hence it requires a Zen like approach to be in the moment and flow with the cosmic consciousness. That is how Krishna dealt with the war of Mahabharata, by being totally in present. He taught going beyond ego and surrender to divine, instead of focusing on moral teachings. Similarly, in today’s world too, the morals have become outdated and one needs to flow with the cosmic intelligence. This is a highly creative time, when a new foundation of society is being laid. And your question- whose sides will Krishna take? And which are the two sides? In my understanding, one side is the rational mind, which is ego oriented and the other side is the one with faith in divine. As usual, the second side appears to be too weak right now, but Krishna consciousness is taking the side of those who live in harmony with cosmic consciousness.
Anand: Why is Krishna considered to be a Purna Purshottam (complete incarnation) of God. Was he really God, as he asks Arjuna “Abandoning all Dharma, seek asylum in Me”. I feel Krishna would have said in Zen terms “Abandoning all Dharma of the mind, surrender to no-mind”. Doesn’t it look egoistic on part of Krishna?
Shivo: I don’t know if he was god or not. But his way of living was totally inspiring. And as you rightly mentioned, Abandoning all dharma is akin to no mind. Anyone in the state of no mind is god. Even many of our rishis have declared “Aham Brahmasmi”, which is a statement of truth and not the statement of ego.
Anand: If we observes Krishna’s life – his pranks with the Gopis, his having 16,000 wives, his insistence to Arjuna to go to war when Arjuna himself was not in favor of it – it seems Krishna was really a great rascal. In spite of all these, he has a certain quality of innocence in his personality. Do you think he was innocent?
Shivo: Innocence is the key quality of Krishna, which has become highly relevant in the age of cunning mind. Very soon, this whole selfish thinking will collapse under its own weight, and innocence will be admired as the way to live. What have we gotten out of this cunningness? – Only agonies, sadness and sorrow. Won’t it be great to play like Krishna in total innocence, which is a much higher quality than all the capabilities of mind? In innocence, one is connected to the cosmic intelligence. You must have very often seen that if cunning people try to trap an innocent person, they themselves get trapped, and even though innocent person always seems to be in danger, but no harm is done to him most of the times. Krishna could be so playful and manifest himself in so many dimensions because he was innocent. He had no personal agenda, he was just listening to cosmic intelligence and living, what cosmos wanted him to live.
Anand: Krishna on the one hand exhorts Arjuna to live in the moment, and be a witness and on the other hand he says that The Path of Renunciation (Sannyas Yoga) is the best. Why is he so paradoxical and what does he mean, when one can live in the moment without taking the path of renunciation.
Shivo: Well, living in the moment is the path of renunciation. When one lives in the moment, he is listening to cosmic intelligence and his attachments are collapsed. This is the true Sannyas, to give up your ego. Very soon, people are going to grow tired of their mental juggleries and they will figure out that this is the right way to live.
Anand: How should a normal person relate with Krishna, a multi dimensional enchanting personality?
Shivo: Ya, Krishna is such an enchanting personality. The most unfortunate thing which has happened about Krishna is that we have stopped to understand him as a possibility and a role model and have started to worship him. Once you begin to worship anyone, you don’t have to learn anything from him. After all, he is god and you are a mortal being, so how can you dare to learn from him. We need to have a different understanding of Krishna and think of him as a possibility. Although his personality is so enchanting, that we would always be tempted to worship him, but must know that he is a role model.
Anand: People start worshiping personalities when they cannot understand him or start abusing him as in the case of Osho, why is it that people do not have the courage to live Krishna and Osho?
Shivo: Well, it requires immense courage to live like Krishna and Osho and I am not even suggesting that we begin to live like them. We all have our unique path. Nature is extremely creative and it never makes anything twice. Even two leaves of the same tree are not same. So, we are essentially different from Osho and Krishna. So, there is no point in following them. However, when it comes to consciousness, we all are same and we all can achieve the same peak, though it may take many lifetimes to do that. So I don’t even suggest that we believe that we can reach the same peak consciousness soon. However, what I mean to say is that we can learn something from Krishna.
Anand: The ISKCON movement is quite popular in the West. They say that one can be Krishna Conscious just by chanting their Mantra Hare Krishna. Is it possible to be Krishna Conscious just by Chanting a Mantra? Have Mantras lost their relevance and if yes, how, as it is believed that the science of Mantras used to work in the past as in the case of Indian and Egyptian civilizations.
Shivo: As far as the Power of mantras are concerned, it works by focusing your mind. But, mantras always backfired as one may very often use them towards ego fulfillment. In modern times we see hypnosis being applied in the same way or even the most successful book THE SECRET, which advocates the law of attraction, have similar principles to mantras. Mantras make the mind powerful, but why give the power to mind, when mind itself is disease? It is the time to go beyond mind and time to drop mantra or any other mind enhancing techniques. Even though, mind is needed for living, it can’t be our master. We need to handover mastery to cosmic intelligence and live a grand life, the way Krishna lived.
Anand: Finally, Nothing in Existence ever dies, so is it possible to connect to Krishna’s soul and if yes, what is the technique. What can a normal person do to be Krishna Conscious?
Shivo: Yes, anyone can connect to Krishna. His existence can still be felt. Though he is omnipresent, his presence can be felt more in the places which were part of his life, such as Mathura, Vrindavan and Dwarka. Surrender of one’s ego is the only way to be one with him. One needs to dedicate himself to be his channel or to be the divine channel to connect to him.
Posts by SpeakBindas Editorial Team.
What a beautiful interview, shivoji! But I feel a bit of concern where you have spoken about a polygamous society… There is a PLENTY of scope for general people misunderstanding you, considering the current maturity level.
We’re a polygamous society, whether one believes it or not, just that due to various invasions on India the original free society has been subdued, but it is changing for now, in the cities it is more open, whereas elsewhere in India it is more underground, however, it exists nevertheless. One should be prepared for what is going to come in India in the coming few years, as India sheds it narrow orthodox mindset and regains the freedom that existed in ancient India. In any case, the so called orthodox society harbors polygamy in its sub-conscious, so i don’t think, there is any scope for misunderstanding. Indians are very mature people, in my view.
I am also surprised, how people are focussing on just one aspect of this dialogue – polygamy, when we have discussed Krishna as a whole and his multi-dimensional being.
Dear Sarvesh,
It is true that I can be mis understood on this issue. But I have to take this risk, as I can see this trend setting in. People are no more satisfied with one lover and it is regarded as something very negative and this is not going to help. We need to develop fresh set of ethics and morals for the polygamous society, instead of branding polygamy as bad.
Anandji, in my view, India as a country cannot be called matured by any stretch of imagination. And its not about being positive or patriotic, but its pretty self evident.
Anandji, what you are saying is absolutely true. You said that society habours polygamy in its subconscious. 100% Agreed. But is it honest enough to accept it? I am talking of society as a whole and not of one or two evolved individuals like you, me or shivoji. Thats where social maturity comes into play. Just experiment one thing. (for the sake of fun). Arrange a public gathering on this topic on Shivaji Park in Mumbai. (I think there is no other city in India more ‘free’ than mumbai). People will immediately tell you how much matured they are 😉 ( Pls dont try this really becos I sincerely care for your’s and shivoji’s health 🙂 )
Good Idea Sarveshji, we should arrange a public meeting on ‘POLYGAMY’, it will indeed be fun :-D, it will offend only those who are not mature. I am sure a good percentage of people will appreciate what they already feel and do, the rest and i guess a small percentage will certainly feel offended, not because they do not appreciate it, but just because of their repressive nature. And it is these small no of people who crreate the greatest mischief. If Indians were not mature enough, Osho’s message would not have been accepted by such a large no of people as today. I have been to many rural places in India and have seen polygamy in action, and in most of the places it is accepted, in many places it is underground for fear of law and some sections of the society. So it is not true that only ‘mumbai’ is the most free city, there are many cities, and i have seen that rural villages are more open than the so called cities. I stand by my statement ‘ Indians are mature, india was a free society in the ancient days and is evolving again to become a free society’, so your dream will come true. What we call the Indian society (upto the 1990s) was a far cry from the true Indian civilization.
Anandji, I am not focussing only on polygamy..
Thats why I appreciated the interview very much in the begining. Beautiful questions, beautiful answers. No doubt about that. There is lot to be learnt and understood from this interview.
The issue is simple. I personally can relate with Lord Krishna and His teachings. So do many other people. But when it comes to Krishna’s romantic life (16000 wives and all) , people generally fall into a dilemma. The psyche of people, especially Indians, has to undergo a fundamental shift before they can really accept what shivoji has said.
I have always maintained, and have even told shivoji very frankly, that his views regarding marriage/relationships are way – way ahead of times… But I sincerely hope that our society will evolve to absorb and assimilate such views, one day.
Dear Shivoji,
I totally agree with you. But, it can be very dangerous and risky, attempting to change something which has also become a source of bread and butter for some elements in the society…( The two ‘Ps’..who else?? 🙂 )
Dear Sarvesh,
The key to social approach towards Krishna’s romantic life is in the guilt associated with man woman interaction. Otherwise, why would one have contempt for someone who loves? If love is pure and innocent, then isnt is beautiful to love more people? Every lover is unique with immense potential of evolution. When we are deep in love, we co evolve. Why limit our evolution? If one can experience true love, there will no issue like condemning polygamy or multiple lovers.
Anandji, you have agreed that because of fear of LAW, people dont disclose their polygamy.
What is LAW, afterall? In a democratic country like India, law represents the general sentiment of the MAJORITY public. Its a reflection of public policy.Our law, including the supreme court of India condemns polygamy. For me, that is the mirror of the society.
As far as Osho’s message is concerned, I know how much Indians were receptive to him. (sarcasm intended 😉 ) Here, in this ‘great’ city like Pune, the public sentiment continues even today that OSHO ashram is a prostitution den where you can come and pay and have sex with whomsoever you want. Ask any college going boy/girl who is not aware of Osho’s work. They will express to you the general sentiment of Indian public towards Osho.
So Anandji, I dont think that Indians are open-minded enough to accept polygamy AS A WAY OF LIFE ..(Few examples here and there are not worth paying attention towards). If that was the case, the law-makers/ courts etc would not have made it illegal. In India, polygamy invites the same public wrath as prostitution. The matured people you are referring to are in EXTREME minority…. Very EXTREME monority 🙂
ok great
@ shivoji,
that was a great explanation.
I think the consciousness itself of the general public will have to rise higher before they can accommodate this line of thinking. With the current level of collective consciousness, it seems very difficult that people will accept polygamy as a way of life.
thats really great it teachs the way to live the life
This is the sort of “Spiritual Teacher” that exemplify what was predicted in the Vedas about Kali yuga religion.
It is easy for people to give a cosmic rational for unrestrained sense gratification and mask it with a “New Age Zen” philosophy to delude people and take their $.
Anyone who is sincere and interested in a true spiritual path should ignore the the phony gurus which will empower your ego and leave your soul starving.
How about Abortions? Are they “Sacred?” Maybe the Osho community in OR thought so, they had so many, they had to have their own clinic… “A child does not need to know who their father is, they are property of the community” (Osho Quote)
Go beyond all morality, have sex with animals and young children…morality is all relative…just go into “No Mind” and know how to look at people gooey eyed and you are Enlightened! It is all so easy! Please don’t /Use the devotional art make by devotees of Krishna to promote your propaganda…the artist is may come after you very upset!
http://www.youtube.com/mastabuildas#p/a/f/0/1HCYFS6UiWs
@Ananda Acharya: Have you discovered for yourself Zen and Osho, if not then stop making stupid comments, it only shows what you are.